Do you think NOT being HIV friendly is discrimination

[owen2032]

Just got an interesting email from someone on asspig.com saying how hurt he feels and how demeaning it is that I placed in my ad "HIV POZ need NOT apply"

Why would someone ever think that?..... Now we are being prosecuted for choosing the safest people to have sex with??????

Seriously WHAT THE FUCK????????!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! ?!?!?!?

[kpig]

Owen I think it is more the way you worded it,the term "need not apply" has many negative and discriminatory connotations here in the U.S. I think a simple HIV- only please would have been a better way of phrasing it.

[owen2032]

Come on guys.... I can't beleive that we as a society of straight, gay, bisexual etc.... Haven't evolved a thicker skin. Sticks and stones people.

[kpig]

Just to expand on my explanation a little more here in the U.S. not all that many years ago the term was used by employers landlords and social organizations to discriminate against minorities or other "undesirables"

[denmis]

Owen, you may have a thick skin, but that doesn't mean others have one. People who are HIV+ are all different, and for some, any kind of rejection is considered personal. I agree that a simple HIV- only suffices. As for me, idiots and jerks need not apply.

[owen2032]

Point taken but we're not comparing apples to apples here. I'm not placing an add for the purpose of hiring someone for a position in my company.

[owen2032]

Well I can see how some *could* take offense to that but I jus can't cater to the coddling of a few people just because their feelings were hurt. I find it a bit over reactive.

Also, did you ever even think of asking WHY I was so blunt????

"why were you so blunt Owen?"

Thanks for asking. Because before I had that little comment, most of the guys approaching me were HIV+ and some just would't take the hint.

[kpig]

Wasn't trying to make a judgement one way or the other Owen,was just offering my opinion.Usually over at Asspig if guys are being jerks and not getting the polite hints I just block them from contacting me.

[crotchshaver]

Owen,

Yeah, I agree that the "need not apply" is considered a put-down here in the U.S. and would be insulting to anyone HIV+ who even casually read the ad even if he wasn't interested in replying to you for other reasons. It's sorta like using the N-word or the F-word to a total stranger. It's like the difference between saying "No fat asses allowed" and "Please be height-weight proportionate."

L

[owen2032]

Actually.... I just had another look and it isn't "need not apply", it's "need not respond" a little less offensive I think. I do remember thinking that need not apply sounded too smug for my liking. Either way, it's staying. Hell I haven't even met anyone yet but I do know that the person who responds to it and i do end up meeting will be someone who sees my point of view on it... I can see why some would be offended by it but my need to be 100% clear about this issue superceedes sensitivity when it comes to HIV and AIDS

[AtlantaB]

Dear Owen if you are looking to hook up with other guys perhaps you should just say HIV- only please. But you would be careful anyway regardless of what a person says about his HIV status? If you are thinking about playing with guys you should also get your hepatitis shots. The likelihood of getting Hep B or C is greater than the likelihood of HIV, especially if you sheath up.

[owen2032]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the advice.... I do think about changing it but I'm in no rush really and I do like how clear my point is. It may offend some (perhaps even many) but like I said, for me safety starts with not even getting in the situation to begin with. I'll definitely cover up should it ever get that far.

[hrybfyblnd]

Owen, I think it is ok to post that you do want to play with HIV+ guys if you like. However, if I had a dollar for every liar and faker, I would have enough money to run a testing facility at my front door. Saying you don't want pos guys doesn't mean that what you'll get and some guys might be offended enough that they lie and play with you anyway. With that said, no matter what a guy says I treat them all the same, as if they were pos. So, that takes us back to what is the difference. Someone who tells you the truth (therefore, ensuring you can protect yourself in the best possible manner) or someone who doesn't like your ad and decides to lie and potentially expose you anyway. Serious catch 22. Peace and Happy Fisting!

John

[owen2032]

Thanks for the reply. Definitely some food for thought. that possibility has crossed my mind and to be honest, it is what has kept me from actually letting an experienced top play with my hole..... don't get me wrong, I would LOOOOVE to be worked over by some of you talented dudes and I'd return the favor hands down but when push comes to shove I need to REALLY know the person and REALLY trust them before any type of physical contact would allow a good play session. I also (like many of you out there) have a significant other and i need to think of here as well. Bringing home HIV is not the best gift to give to your wife and it's definitely NOT the best thing to reveal either. I think that I should have a serious chat about all this with her. She is just not into fisting the way I am and if she's OK with it, I'd love to find a part time fisting buddy who I can trust. Very tough these days IMHO

[kpig]

Owen

I'm a big fan of treading lightly where other peoples feelings are concerned and that seems to be less of a concern in the interest of unequivocal clarity to you. I will point out the website being discussed is a little bit different than this one in as much as it is an almost exclusively gay hardcore leather one and this one as far as I can tell has a good mix of gay and bi-sexual players.There are many many old time hardcore HIV+ and HIV friendly players that have a far different attitude about was is and isn't safe play and could view your rigid attitude ( which you are more than entitled to have) as antiquated and ill informed.Some may actually view a married bi-sexual man coming into an extreme gay anal site and being so blunt as down right rude.Just throwing out some food for thought not trying to offend.

[kpig]

Well that didn't sound right,I wasn't trying to imply this site wasn't hardcore anal its just not as leather men lifestyle orientated as the other one.

[owen2032]

Guys I know what you're trying to say and I GET IT, BELIEVE ME. Regardless, I'm sticking to my guns.....

I have nothing against HIV+ players. I just won't play with them, that's all and I want to be absolutely clear about it. If some perceive it as rude, it's their problem not mine. Besides, it's not like their selection is limited to just me. There are lot's of HIV friendly fisters and fistees out there.

[fistdbylthr]

So are you asking for legal certification from each player before you play with them or do you just take their word for it? What about the ones who believe they are negative at the time, and indeed could be positive unbeknownst to both partners at the time? Also I am sure there is many a positive hot guy who would like to plug another guy's hot ass who would deny his HIV+ status just to get in. Any thing can happen in the throes of passion at the moment. Having any kind of sex with anyone these days can be risky even if condoms or gloves are used.

[owen2032]

So are you asking for legal certification from each player before you play with them or do you just take their word for it? What about the ones who believe they are negative at the time, and indeed could be positive unbeknownst to both partners at the time? Also I am sure there is many a positive hot guy who would like to plug another guy's hot ass who would deny his HIV+ status just to get in. Any thing can happen in the throes of passion at the moment. Having any kind of sex with anyone these days can be risky even if condoms or gloves are used.

Which is why I've been so careful. I'm not fooling myself. I know this search will take awhile.

[leonicdragon]

Is it discriminatory? Maybe, but one can never be too cautious and just because someone says they take "the cocktail" does not mean that they really do. I've heard guys tell me that they could bleed onto an open wound of mine and not transfer; that's a risk that I'm not willing to take.

I'm germ phobic enough as it is, and the thought of contraction is a HUGE turn off to me. Now certainly, given the proper protection and assuring you have to open cuts or anything on your hands, fisting is much safer than fucking, but if you want to fuck, then I wouldn't chance a pos player especially if you fist with oils.

So I'd say that HIV status is much less important if you are just fisting than it is if you are fucking. The most important thing is to be informed on what's safe and what isn't.

[musclekink]

Owen

You stick to your guns buddy boy, 'cause guns are gonna be what you'll want when you get deceived by your ignorant and naive attitude. The only way to prevent becoming HIV+ IS BY PLAYING SAFE...period end of discussion. You can ask for test results, be as careful as you want but, in the end, that's the only way. You stick to those big guns of yours kiddo...I'm sure some stud will find 'em blazing hot and catch you with your guard down! But I'm sure they would never mean to offend you, right!

[owen2032]

Thanks big boy.. I will stick to my guns.... :)

[HansIndeep]

Owen,
Real truth, not some fairy tale...
If you are not fluid intimate with someone, you must play safer. Play as if all players have bio contagen including HIV. Thinking you are being safer by playing with non-HIV people is silly at best. HIV is not the only thing to worry about. MRSA, warts and a hole host of other bio issues that can be shared during play could make the rest of your life living hell...for however long that is. That being said there is a lot of FFun to be had while being safe(r). Knowing your partner will play safer as you need play to be, not just his idea of safer is key. Just wearing gloves does not make it safer play. If a gloved hand touches a non sterile sling chain or used to wank a cock other than yours, it is no longer safer to touch your ass. What and where a gloved hand or condom covered cock goes and touches, how toys are handled, what sprays where... are all very important. During all play including FFA DC and other parties I watch out for myself and others. Some think that this makes for "too many rules". Once safer play becomes second nature and all are aware of what reduces safety, it is not a bid deal, nor a mood killer to play safer. Taking a moment to reglove if a hand touches a boot, chain or floor is far quicker than recovery from an infection. Some players "get it", some don't. It is not snobby nor aloof not to play with others that can not learn how to play safer.
Be aware! Butt have FFun.

Hans

[owen2032]

All great recommendations Hans. I do get what you're saying and trust me. I WILL be careful when the time comes.... Should it ever come :)

[AtlantaB]

Great post Hans! To which I might add "bring your own lube"!

[uptotheballs]

As far as I know, whenever I came across an HIV+ guy, he never mentioned it in a straight manner but rather gave me hints about his status such as, for instance, pulling out his medications while ordering from the menu at a restaurant.
And since I wouldn't go beyond pumping or dildoing out of my own equipment, HIV+ buddies have never been an issue to me. Moreover, realizing with awe how distressed I would get if I ever managed to get IT, I'm not likely ever to add insult to injury to any of my fellow companions.
uptotheballs.

[owen2032]

"insult to injury"??????

See this is what bugs me about this whole "Please be polite about it thing".

Everyone here is basically saying "Bad Owen, you should be a little more tactful! Fellow fisters with HIV should not be made to feel bad about having it."

IF you make the choice to have unprotected sex or play with someone before knowing them well enough to make a SOUND and INFORMED decision on how safe to play then in my opinion you deserve what you get. And if you happen to get HIV then your life has now changed forever. The people you have sex with and interact with daily WILL change. It's just a fact of reality.

Let's assume for a moment that I have it. for sure I'd be devastated and I would be doing allot of soul searching, wondering what's gonna happen and then after the initial shock wore off I'd accept it and it's consequences which are; people will look at me differently from now on and I would fall into different social circles when it came to things like intimacy and sex. It's a lifestyle change, IT COMES WITH THE TERRITORY, and to me it is not fair to DEMAND that someone without HIV change their ad just because I feel a little offended. In fact I'd totally applaud their effort to be very clear about how they feel about the possibility of getting it.

[JamesG52231]

Owen, while I agree it is your right to be as smug or rude or whatever you wish in your ad - I would never respond to a person who is smug or rude in an ad as I believe it tells me something about the personality of the person posting the advertisement. Rude and insensitive in an ad – to me – equals a rude and insensitive person in life. Others may disagree, but that’s been my take on it for a long time and I have yet to be proven wrong.

With that said I am compelled to ask you; if you are so incredibly afraid of HIV and AIDS, why not make the choice to be asexual (sex only with yourself). In today’s world, there are amazing numbers and types of toys to play with. An exploration of every type, size and style of dildo would take a lifetime alone. Add porn, poppers, lube and a fuck machine and really – you don’t need men.

Why risk some guy lying to you about his HIV status when you seem to have a pretty advanced fear of it? It seems to fly in the face of your expressed extreme aversion to risk.

Just curious.

[JamesG52231]

Oh, I almost forgot, one other thing;

Your post above assumes that every gay man got HIV from knowingly participating in unprotected sex. I can tell you that most did not. Some were lied to by unscrupulous partners. Some got it before they knew their partner had it – before the partner even knew. Some got it from a bad blood transfusions and some from sharing a needle. So, until you know for sure the circumstances of the person’s infection, maybe just a little tact is in order. These guys are human too and they deal with a tough struggle every day. Why add to their burden unnecessarily?

The final thought I have about your postings is that your extreme insistence on HIV- people only being around you hints that you, yourself, desire to participate in unprotected sex. There are dozens of venereal diseases you can get, some, like Hepatitis have consequences as bad as HIV and are even more transmissible. So, again, why take the chance?

Sex with yourself is really the only safe choice if your fear level is that high, because there is always risk in sexual contact with another human being.

[hrybfyblnd]

Hmm, I am not sure that Owen's request is smug or rude. Don't we have an obligation to ourselves to say what we want and/or feel. I mean really. I don't know that his request is that offensive either. I constantly read no one over 40 or a whole host of stated preferences. If I got offended by the desires, requests and demands of others, then I think that really would speak volumes about my own insecurities. HIV is a serious STD as is Herpes and HPV all of which are incurable. However, HIV, while managable with todays meds, still ends in a reduced life with many complications for a fact.

[JamesG52231]

I agree; we do have an obligation to say what we want or need. All I am saying is - stating in an advertisement for sex - "HIV- and DDF please" has a whole different ring to it than "HIV+ need not respond.” So, as I said before; Owen can say what he wants in his ads, just as I can say what I want in mine:

“Heterosexual men need not respond and married men definitely need not respond.”

You see I strongly prefer men who are turned on by men – and only men. I don’t need any wanna-be unfaithful fence-sitters competing for the limited pool of great GAY men out there. Not to mention the incredible risk of STD’s that I’d be taking by knowingly playing with a married, cheating man. No thanks. I’ll stick to normal gay guys who really know how to safely work a hole.

No offense to married or heterosexual and bisexual guys. Hope you have a thick skin and can take bluntness. If not, I’ll stick to my guns anyway because the world has forgotten the value of being polite and I appreciate Owen leading the way.

[hrybfyblnd]

James, you made my point with your response. I could read smugness and tone into your ad just as easily as Owens original post/question. Posting your desires or requirements, if you will, does not make HIV+ people a victim. Furthermore, in your first post you iterated HIV+ people as being victims of circumstance. Fine we all know that people acquire HIV through no fault of their own. That does not mean you can go from victim to victimizer. All I was suggesting is that people add their own tone to written language, and maybe before passing judgement on a profile the person reading it should think about their own depth of character.

[JamesG52231]

in a post on a web site. I deliberately chose that tone to make my point – that how people read a post is reflective of how it is written and thus reflective of the writer. I knew you’d react just as you did.

Tone does not always carry through well. A *smile* may be behind the words, but that does not show through. Sometimes, we hurt people by what we say. Why add to the misery and grief of an already divisive world by making our statements too strong or being cruel?

Nobody will argue with Owen’s right to choose whom he wants to play with. All anyone on here has said to him is “Why not be polite?" There are certainly polite ways to say HIV- only and he can always say "no thanks" to anyone who is HIV+. That is his privilege. So far, he has not given a good answer to that question – instead he has been expressing why he wants to make a stand and hold his ground. Bully for him.

But, like I said before; based on the tone of his notes, I would never choose him to play with – and that’s my right too. All I'd like to see him do is think about how his writing reflects on himself – not just focus on how little he cares about the hurt feelings of those who he is discriminating against. His writing tells me enough about his character to let me know he is not somebody I'd prefer to know.

Have a pleasant remainder of the weekend.

[hrybfyblnd]

James, spirited debate is always important when working to resolve appropriate norms. I don't think I was clear in one point I was trying to make. When I stated "I could read smugness and tone into your ad just as easily as Owens original post/question." I want to be clearer that it is the reader who is responsible for applying his/her own tone to the writing. With that said, imho, one, his statement is not offensive because it is not abhorrent in its content IE, I hate HIV+ people and they should all die. Two, i don't think it is anymore impolite than saying brunette's need not apply. HIV+ folks have no more right to be angry over his statement than brunette's would be. Again, being HIV+ does not make a victim and certainly two wrongs don't make a right. IE, I am Pos and now I can victimize others because of my own perceived victimization. Finally, life is not fair. No one said it would be. POS people who read his ad as offensive and can't move along, imho, should seek therapy for anger issues. I don't think his request makes him a bad person anymore that my distaste for lima beans makes me a person of questionable character. I think your judgement of his characted is misplaced. After all it is just a posting for a hookup.

[JamesG52231]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I might have agreed with you - to a point - until Owen elaborated on his "I'm married, not willing to play with anyone unless they are HIV- and can prove it and how dare anyone take offense any my wording" posts. Owen is a bully and really just wants to stir the pot. He knew full well that his wording was inflammatory - he even admitted such early on when he talked about how angry he is at HIV+ guys who respond to his ad. Owen's a angry dude who's stuck in a relationship where his partner does not share his interests and he is angry that a lot of the men who do share his interests are not acceptable to him due to their HIV status. He's even more mad that most of them did this to themselves. He, of course, is so perfect that he's never made a mistake and he can hold himself above mere mortals who have HIV. I guess he has a right to express that - but it does not make him any less of a turkey for how he expressed it.

For any preference in a sex ad - why not just express it simply. Why add inflammatory language? Why insult people? Why make people's on-line experience negative? Just express your preferences, i.e., HIV-, HWP, under 30, blond, green eyes, able to take a fist to the elbow, MALE, etc., without adding commentary. Saying HWP please is way different than saying "no fat-asses." Saying "I'd love to meet a blond man with a big dick" is much nicer than saying "No red-heads or small dicked guys need respond." What people are objecting to is just the tone of the note.

You make one reasonable point that I agree with - that the reader's reaction is also telling about the character and mindset of the reader - just as the writer's tone and choice of words indicated a lot about the writer.

It is apparent that we will just have to agree to disagree here. But, that's the privilege of polite poeple.

Nice chatting with you and again, I hope you have a pleasant rest of the weekend.

[owen2032]

Two words James FUCK YOU.....

You can ask anyone here. I am no bully and if those that frequent this forum truly think so then please let me know.

As for you. You seem so full of shit that your eyes MUST be brown. I've never seen so much pseudo intellectual bullshit in all my life.... REALLY, I mean REALLY, I have never EVER read such pointless and meaningless substance as what you have posted.

Now I'M offended.... WAHH WAHHH... Give me a fucking break.


Hansindeep, Crotchshaver, AtlantaB, Leonicdragon and many others here are people that I consider VERY well grounded and knowledgable. We have agreed AND disagreed in the past but never this way..... God do you ever listen to yourself or is this even possible as I am starting to suspect that your head could truly be up your own ass.